Talk:Haku/Archive 1
First appearance I believe it was Episode 9 that Haku first appeared as a Hunter ninja. If someone remembers him showing up before then could they fix the episode number? Also, can someone put in when Haku appeared in the manga. Be it as a Hunter-nin or as himself, whichever is first. I think it was Chapter 10 but I have no clue if that's correct. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 8, 2007 @ 11:29 (UTC) :Chapter 16, page 15 from my references. Putting that in now. --Dubtiger 04:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Trivia addition I've been trying to find a good wording for the trivia bit to note on how some fans speculate on Haku's gender. Jhbartlett suggested "Due to Haku's androgynous appearance, and his tendency to lie to protect his identity and Zabuza'a in the past, further coupled with his very close relationship to Zabuza, some fans speculate that Haku may actually be a girl.", but it's a little to big for a trivia note. Any ideas for revising it? ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 10, 2007 @ 02:55 (UTC) :Ok, the old dispute isn't helping the article at all. Believe it!'s been temp blocked because he attacks every comment that someone makes on this talkpage. So it's ok to contribute some feedback on what you think should be done with the article. I'm going to post the ones put on my talkpage below to help with the discussion. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 10, 2007 @ 03:17 (UTC) Omg, I don't want to dattebayo that that argument is even happening... My stance: Haku is a boy. On page 12 of chapter 21 "Oh...and...I'm a boy." Also, without fail, Zabuza refers to Haku as "he". Now, it is true that Haku has an androgynous appearance. Nonetheless, whether Haku and Zabuza are lying about his gender or not, we are only given those few circumstances as evidence, and so speculation needs to be put aside. It is a fact that Haku has a very close relationship with Zabuza, it is a fact that they are running from the shinobi hunters, it is a fact that he has lied before...but it is also fact that he claimed to be a boy. If we are going to say that everything he said was a lie, because he lied once, then it could be that he enjoyed a comforatble life with both parents still alive. Unfortunately, we are not given absolute proof of Haku's gender. But, for that matter, neither are we for anyone except Naruto and Sai's friend, given the various comments that Sai makes about Naruto's vital male organs. After all, this manga is not a pornographic work, nor should it have to be. So, I would say that in this case, it is truly necessary to go with the character's words on this matter. You should put a note in that says, "Due to Haku's androgynous appearance, and his tendency to lie to protect his identity and Zabuza'a in the past, further coupled with his very close relationship to Zabuza, some fans speculate that Haku may actually be a girl." But no one can reasonably deny Haku's claim that he is a boy, nor should he be referred to as anything but male pronouns in the article. Sorry for the huge statement. But hopefully my opinion helps you. Jhbartlett 02:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC) :I agree with your proposal, Jhbartlett. Many fans of Naruto only believe what has been clearly stated in the manga/anime itself, rather than piecing individual evidence together to figure it out. I myself did not believe that Tobi was Madara until sufficient evidence was provided (the use of possessive kanji in the untranslated version in the example). Also, the dub leans towards a masculine tone, rather than the original, more feminine, voice. This would support Haku's male gender too, since different audiences have different views on even the smallest of things, such as voices.. --Dubtiger 00:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Well, the Zabuza arc is over, Zabuza and Haku are dead, and Haku's gender doesn't matter. (It's not like Naruto's gonna date Haku in the next chapter.) Even so, it's a talk page, and my opinion of talk pages are that disputes belong there. Sure there are disputes about the stupidest things ever, but if Haku is a boy or girl is something to debate then it should be debated. However, it is not something to debate, but even so it is a debate. Even though it is already shown right in front of your very eyes, it's simply fun for people to disprove something. I do agree that it is disruptive, so it should be put in another page because it's not really worth the effort to debate something like the gender of someone like Haku. It's like asking if Sasuke REALLY turned to Orochimaru. I will say this-HAKU IS A BOY!!! He looks like a girl, but he's a boy. Like Deidara. If Kishimoto, the Buddha, or Rikudan-sennin yelled out from the heavens, "HAKU IS A BOY!!!!" then there would be no debate. That is my opinion. Madara uchiha99 01:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)Madara uchiha99 :Yup, I agree discussions on things related to the article do belong here. But there are two important points on that. Discussions on how to improve the article are good. Which means that there's a degree of to the point that needs to be part of the discussion. Like Jhbartlett said, "...in this case, it is truly necessary to go with the character's words on this matter." is a point I agree with. However this was never included as a point in the last debate, it was primarily focused around "These FACTS(speculation) say that Haku is a girl..." rather than figuring out, what type of source information about Haku is valid and valuable to the wiki to determine how to treat the article. A discussion on how to improve the article is good, but a strait debate on what uncitable reasons there are that Haku could be of a different gender belongs elsewhere because that has little bearing on the article. Discussion is a process of gathering information, explaining viewpoints and reasons behind those, and finding a method to best reflect those in the article. :Another point is on the case of Edit wars. Even just looking at Wikipedia on how they deal with Edit wars its different than what was thought by one user. They don't say anything about removing all bits of info from the article that pertain to the discussion. They say that "Protection during an edit war is not an endorsement of the current version." In other words, edit wars don't mean that an article should be put into a state of absolute neutrality just because something is being discussed. In cases like this, IMHO as an administrator I think that the version that an article should be left at when discussion is ongoing should be a reflection of the previous consensus. Any other thoughts? ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 11, 2007 @ 04:02 (UTC) :::For what it's worth, the Japanese Wikipedia dedicated an entire article on the theory that Uesugi Kenshin Uesugi Kenshin (上杉謙信) might be female. The article is organized as followed: ::: * Overview ::: * Female theory ::: ** Evidence supporting theory ::: ** Possible reasons why, if theory is true, Kenshin would have disguised as being male ::: * Criticisms to the theory (counter arguments) ::: * Related topics ::: * External links :::The main Uesugi Kenshin article links to the female theory article in multiple places: when naturally mentioning notable characteristics (family life, cause of death, etc) that happened to support the female theory, and in a "Related topics" section. The main article does not go out of its way to talk about the female theory at all. This might be a model for you guys to use, and give extensive space for the people who wish to explore the topic a place to express themselves without affecting the main article. -Afker 05:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC) ::::Interesting, that is a possible thing to do... In time... I don't think we're at the state where that is a good idea yet. There's only one person here who would be writing for the other side, and from the looks of the past discussion trying to actually organize the article calmly may not work out so well at the moment. Trying to come up with what stuff is valid that could be put there when actually considering speculation as part of the content could prove troublesome with only the current community. ::::But it does give a potential idea for a future project. Once we've actually grown more, have more users, and we've actually done enough of the official stuff (we're still no-where near through anything). The idea would be a bit of a speculation run. Finding the topics that fans who don't stick to official citeable sources like to debate. And then creating pages like that on them. Tag them with a template at the top noting that everything on the page is speculated and is not a reliable resource, and we track down different points of the debate and see which ones are good (Aren't assuming far to much, etc...), and also find the counterpoints to each one. Then put them together into a good article. ::::But that's something for the future, we're only a small selection of users at the moment, we're not diverse enough, or large enough to work on something like that yet. Plus, there's plenty of other actual content we need to work on before we try adding interesting side articles to the wiki. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 12, 2007 @ 08:24 (UTC) :::::On the other hand, if you open up to allow speculation now (in well-contained space), you might be able to attract more people, who like to debate and dig up random still frames of the animation and stuff, and then get them to help out with the main focus of the wiki. I mean, what better way to organize all the rampant speculations and theories people may have, than a wiki? People do speculations stuff on forums, and it is super disorganized. Wiki articles allows evidence/arguments from multiple people to be collaboratively organized so that people don't repeat old arguments over and over and over again. Get the ppl who love to do speculations and theories hooked on to the wiki-collaborative style, then trick convert them into helping out with teh rest of the wiki. Step 3: ????. Step 4: Profit! It's not about spreading your manpower for another direction of content. It's about using another direction of content to recruit more manpower. -Afker 14:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Just for what little it is worth. There's another reference to Haku's gender being male inside the "Konoha Trivia Super Quiz" segment of the end of Naruto Shippūden Episode 45 if anyone wants another. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Feb 7, 2008 @ 07:54 (UTC) = Taking a break = I recently contacted an admin of Wikipedia, and he told me that this website has nothing to do with Wikipedia. In other words, this is just a non-official fansite. A fake. A blog. Lacking all merit and credibility. Therefore, I don't care about the article page at this time. It can be left incorrect for all I care. However, during this break I will continue to review and translate the digital texts of Haku's databook information, which I have come to possess thanks to a friend of mine. I will mull over these texts and translate them by myself or with the friend who gave them to me. I am not going to share them here as I intended to since DanTMan decided to abuse his privilages by breaking the rules with the reverts and editing as well as banning my account. Well, at least not until I am certain as to what the texts say. As it stands, there is a good chance that one text states that Haku was a girl. I am trying to confirm the sentence structure now. If so, then you can believe that I will return. See you around. --Believe it! 04:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC) :And you'd be surprised how many feel the exact same way about Wikipedia Prime.--TheUltimate3 04:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC) ::You were told that the Narutopedia had nothing to do with Wikipedia already, we're both wiki, but we have different goals and topics. Wikipedia isn't official either, neither the Narutopedia or Wikipedia is officially recognized by those creating Naruto, so neither is more official. As for rule breaking, as I've said Wikipedia's rules, which are actually principles, do not apply here, because as you now understand, we are not part of Wikipedia. The community here is what defines what policies to go by, just as how Wikipedia did when it started up. If anyone had an opposition to the temp block, then they would have told me. But no-one has opposed it, so it looks fine by what the community feels. What matters here is community opinion, not ill written rules pages. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 13, 2007 @ 08:07 (UTC) :Would it be inappropriate if I ROFL at Believe it!'s original misconceptions about this site? -Afker 20:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC) I am referring to "Please Respect Neutrality" found in http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Narutopedia:Rules which is from this wiki. Doesn't matter now though. I'm not surprised that someone who is above the rules wouldn't follow them. --Believe it! 23:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC) ::1) Don't mock Believe It! Afker. It's not nice. 2) If it doesn't matter, why bother complaining about it?--TheUltimate3 23:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC) :::Neutrality can be defined in multiple ways. Here it's a style of writing decided by consensus. And don't try to quote those rules, I wrote those a long time ago, they're just a placeholder with little value which needs major updating. In fact, they weren't even meant for the wiki, just a general baseline. All the rules we go by are more common sense on the wiki than ones which are written down. I should probably put that note on that page stating that the rules page is old and outdated and may not necessarily be completely valid. Anyways, no matter what is written, community consensus is always more important than a rules page. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 14, 2007 @ 02:49 (UTC) WTF, edit wars?!? Do we have to lock the article or something? Someone keeps changing Haku's gender to female!! --Dubtiger 21:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) :I have just learned that some people are changing the article to state that Haku was a girl, or female. While true fans know this to be a fact, we must also remember that this Wiki is not a place that regards the facts of the series. So I encourage all those who are changing the artice so that it reflects the fact that Haku was a girl to STOP doing so. No one cares about the truth of Haku more than I do, so I know what it is like when people post ideas as fact with no basis for it. However, I am in the process of translating Haku's databook info and it looks like there is a good chance that it proves Haku was a girl. So I urge everyone to be patient and hold off on this article until we have undeniable proof from the databook that Haku was a girl. Hopefully the gangs on here will not disregard that proof as they have with the other facts. I also ask all of those people to direct any more "girl Haku" editors to this message. --Believe it! 05:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC) My foolish, misguided friend, that was an editor that went as far as to label Naruto and Sasuke as (lovers). That guy was a vandal not a true believer to your "philosophy" by any stretch of the word. But boy for a guy who regarded this Wiki as a fan-wank blog sure does care what goes on huh?--TheUltimate3 06:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC) :Your stupid fansite can rot for all I care. I just don't want anyone giving the TRUE Haku fans a bad name. --Believe it! 06:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC) ::Believe it!, if you're not going to contribute to the wiki. Then please do not harass other users. I'm fine with leaving your account alone, I'm fine with letting you help make other parts of the wiki better, but if you are not going to be kind to the other contributors of the wiki then it's best for you to just leave and delete any bookmarks you have of the wiki. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 6, 2008 @ 08:23 (UTC) :::And I can do you one better and permaban your account to ease the temptation of coming back.--TheUltimate3 13:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC) ::::TheUltimate3, it goes without saying that users who can't find a way to get along with a community will be blocked if they don't make an attempt to at least be kind to them. It doesn't need to be said, no reason to antagonize. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 6, 2008 @ 14:27 (UTC) <<>> i hope you all know that this is a wikia site:go to wikia.com and cartoons&comics on the top.On the bottom of the newly loaded screen there will be a list of manga and comic and cartoon wikias,narutopedia is in there.the link will get you to the homepage.......... :Yes, of course it's a Wikia wiki. ^_^ Kinda why our url is [http://naruto.wikia.com http://naruto.wikia.com]. And why we're part of Wikia ACG. But that doesn't really change anything said. Wikia is the company hosting the wiki, so it's still a wiki, wikia is just used to refer to the fact that the wiki here is hosted by Wikia. (BTW: wikia is plural for wikia). And it doesn't really change any policies, they are defined by the community, not by Wikia. ^_^ On that note, it would be nice if people could actually contribute to Forum:Policies, Narutopedia and Wikia ACG. I'd like to get some actual community written policies up, instead of having people Wikilawyering with policies which do not apply to the wiki. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 11, 2008 @ 06:27 (UTC) ---This is a grand little gender war we have going here, but i do believe i may be able to end it. Haku is most likelysure =) a boy. I've come to this conclusion wih the facts that have been given to me. Haku is repeatedly called a boy and never, at a single time, been referred to as a female(closest thing was naruto's minicrush). Also, all of team 7 refer to him as a boy automatically when he first arrives after "killing" Zabuza, showing they naturally recognized him as male. Next, the theory that Zabuza and Haku lying about his gender to trick others is in most likely a wasted theory. In all flashbacks, he is referred to as a boy by his OWN mother. She would have no reason to hide his gender from the father, nor anyone else. Lastly, Japan is known for its non-judgemenal society when it comes to fashion, appearance, and orientation. It could be perhaps that Haku is an effeminate male, a transvestite, or homosexual. Most animes have been known to have at least one effeminate male character of Inyuyasha or Gin Ichimaru of Bleach. My theory is just a theory as well, but it's a theory backed up completely by facts and supporting evidence, not my own ideas.JoshieGlamour 15:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 22, 2008 @ 09:24 (UTC) ::Firstly, I did try wikipedia first and its not there. Secondly: Sorry but you're wrong, I know what you're talking about with the 'angle' but you're wrong. I don't know how this was overlooked but Haku's right arm was holding onto Sasuke's arm when he tried to stab Haku, during which he brought his free hand inwards and began to perform the seals. Also, both Sasuke and more importantly: Kakashi said so himself that "He can do one-handed seals? Thats not normal." in surprise, not only indicating that there IS reference in the anime (not sure about manga) but also indicating it is not a common ability. I have an anime source, it shows the animation of Haku doing a onehand-seal, and you can clrealy see that Haku is using his other hand to block Sasuke. Both Sasuke AND Kakashi acknowledge that he can do one-handed seals, Haku hints that he is able to do it too. http://youtube.com/watch?v=vpjltmD6P3A (the significant time is from 08:49 to 9:14) DrTheKay 06:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)DrTheKay :::You haven't said anything, so I'm assuming I am correct, and will add the information within the next few hours. DrTheKay 13:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)DrTheKay ::::Please do not assume anything by not receiving a reply from a person. People here on wiki do have lives outside of the wiki and may not be able to get on the computer all the time. Two weeks is more reasonable a wait time, I haven't been able to get on the computer much recently. And there is no obligation for a user to reply within a period of time, much less at all. It's perfectly fine for another user to pick up on the topic and continue discussion. I'm looking at the video right now to see what you are mentioning. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 26, 2008 @ 06:45 (UTC) :::::Ok, it looks like he is able to do a jutsu with a single hand. It's a good trivia reference. Though, Kakashi's comment isn't enough to say that he's the only one that can do it. I believe I've seen other characters doing the same at some points in time. So yes, uncommon, but nothing definitely saying he's the only one. When you add the note to the Trivia section could you use Episode 13 of the Naruto Anime series.. References are the best way to avoid repeat discussions. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 26, 2008 @ 06:53 (UTC) ::::::I never said that Haku was the only individual who could perform one-handed seals, I said he was the only character shown in the series who could.